Hasan Ilyas: It is a great fortune that you were able to benefit intellectually from both Amin Ahsan Islahi and Javed Ahmed Ghamidi. We were deprived of this opportunity because Maulana Islahi passed away before we could fully reach the age of intellectual awareness. Please tell us: Javed Ahmed Ghamidi’s introduction itself is closely tied to Maulana Amin Ahsan Islahi and his thought, and Javed Ahmed Ghamidi often refers to Maulana Islahi in his works. What was Javed Ahmed Ghamidi’s relationship with his teacher like? How did they interact? Can you recall the nature of their exchanges?
Shehzad Saleem: I remember very well. There were many exchanges, but I often noticed that Javed Ahmed Ghamidi would remain silent, absorbing and learning. Occasionally, he would ask questions, and Maulana Islahi would respond. Many times, we would all be sitting in front of Maulana, and if there was a difficulty with ‘Irab (grammatical inflection), or if we needed to determine whether a word was mafool lahu or mafool maah, or its proper syntactic situation, he had a special phrase: “Kyun ji” (“Why, sir?”). He would point and ask, “Kyun ji, please tell me.”
Hasan Ilyas: Did he point towards Javed Ahmed Ghamidi?
Shehzad Saleem: Towards all of us. Sometimes he would address Javed Ahmed Ghamidi specifically, saying “Kyun ji?” And when Javed Ahmed Ghamidi tried to respond, Maulana would say, “Yes, I understand what you are trying to convey.” Javed Ahmed Ghamidi would then confirm, “Yes, that is exactly what I meant.”
Hasan Ilyas: Did you ever see Maulana Islahi scold Javed Ahmed Ghamidi?
Shehzad Saleem: I never saw it personally, but I did hear that on one occasion he reprimanded him regarding a syntactical analysis of the verse from Surah Al-Muddathir:“ ُوَ ْلَ تَمۡنُنۡ تَسۡتَکۡثِر“
Hasan Ilyas: Can you give some details about that incident?
Shehzad Saleem: I would need to reflect further because there are two or three narrations of this event. I will verify it and narrate it another time. But I can share another incident that occurred right before my eyes. Maulana Islahi was seated on a sofa, Javed Ahmed Ghamidi on a chair, and I was sitting nearby. A discussion about books was underway when a gentleman from the UK asked about the copyrights of Maulana’s books and how to handle them. At this, Maulana Islahi pointed to Javed Ahmed Ghamidi and, in a booming voice, said a very firm sentence: “Yeh mere Mukhtaar-e-Kull hain” (“He is my absolute authority. Ask him.”)
Hasan Ilyas: About Javed Ahmed Ghamidi?
Shehzad Saleem: Yes, about Javed Ahmed Ghamidi. Maulana Islahi had a great fondness for children. During lessons, if his grandchildren came to meet him, he would pause the lesson to embrace them and express his affection. I remember once when Maulana Islahi’s friend, Malik Barkat Ali Sahib, a senior figure in Jamaat-e- Islami, passed away, we went with Maulana Islahi to his funeral. Maulana Islahi said, “Pick me up.” Maulana Islahi, Javed Ahmed Ghamidi, and I all traveled in the same car. On the return, he asked the driver to stop and told me to get chocolates for his grandson, Hammad. At that time, Jubilee chocolates were new. He tried to give me money, but I refused. When I brought the chocolates to Maulana, he was extremely pleased and later gave them to his grandson at home.
Hasan Ilyas: Excellent. Let’s move forward. When did the idea of pursuing a PhD arise, and what motivated it?
Shehzad Saleem: The idea of a PhD arose in 2001 when Mian Amir Mehmood (Chairman, Punjab Group of Colleges) proposed that I could develop a two-year Master’s course in Islamic Studies, and they would grant the degree through their MA Jinnah University in Karachi. I was free to design the syllabus. This was an excellent opportunity because existing Master’s courses at Punjab University or elsewhere included many irrelevant elements, making them less appealing to educated students in terms of content and presentation.
So, I developed my own syllabus. They allowed me full freedom to incorporate contemporary material and works of Maulana Farahi or Javed Ahmed Ghamidi. This freedom, along with the degree, was very appealing. Once the degree plan was approved—after several meetings—an opportunity arose for pursuing a PhD through distance learning abroad.
This was a great opportunity because we wanted teachers to have local or foreign degrees, which would benefit the institution. I contacted the University of Wales in the UK, where Dr. Khalid Zaheer had also completed a PhD. They had a distance learning program, requiring periodic visits each year. Unlike the US, in the UK, you can proceed directly to the dissertation without completing coursework.
Before meeting my supervisor, I had conducted preliminary research on “History of the Quran” because I had been responsible for teaching that portion at MA Jinnah University. While teaching, I realized there were fundamental questions that needed deeper exploration. I had gathered substantial material by the time the PhD opportunity arose. I presented this material to my UK supervisor and informed him that I was associated with Javed Ahmed Ghamidi. He did not know Javed Ahmed Ghamidi but recognized that some guidance was being provided and did not interfere much, saying: “Alright, proceed and keep sending your work to me.” This started the process, and the PhD was completed.
After completing the PhD, I realized more work remained on the History of the Quran, so I considered it post- doctoral work and spent another five to six years. In the post-doctoral studies, a major issue was divided into two areas: the compilation of the Quran, which I had covered in the doctoral thesis, and the Qiraat (variant readings) issue, which I had not addressed in the doctoral thesis but covered during the post-doctoral studies over another five to six years.
When I rejoined the institution after the PhD, I continued managing the institution alongside post-doctoral research. I completed the project around 2015–2016, making it a fifteen to sixteen-year endeavor. Revision took another two years. I recorded the material as a series of roughly ninety lectures, which was later published in book form in 2018–2019.
Hasan Ilyas: This is Dr. Shehzad Saleem’s magnum opus. Since I share a very close and profound relationship with Shehzad Saleem and my own inspiration to join Maktaba-e-Farahi also stems from him, I find it a bit odd to call him “Dr. Sahib,” so I refer to him as Shehzad Bhai. Shehzad Bhai has authored nearly forty books, of which twenty-five are his original works in English and the rest are translations. Shehzad Bhai, you wrote in English for a nation whose language is Urdu. Did you deliberately choose English, like Allama Iqbal, to make it inaccessible to some?
Shehzad Saleem: The situation arose like this: In 1990, when the Renaissance magazine started, it was an English publication. My teacher told me to select from the writings already produced at Maktaba-e-Farahi—including works of Maulana Farahi, Maulana Islahi, and Javed Ahmed Ghamidi—and translate them, along with some small contributions I could make myself. If that magazine had not been launched, perhaps I would not have written in English. I have always had a passion for writing in Urdu. I remember a year when I decided to shift entirely to Urdu because of my deep fondness for it. For eight or six months, I left the Renaissance editorial work and handed it over to my colleague Asif Iftikhar. I told him, “You handle the magazine; I will sit on the back bench and gradually move toward Urdu.” But that plan did not materialize. So, if the magazine had not been launched, I might not have chosen English, but because it was, my focus naturally shifted entirely toward English.
Hasan Ilyas: Your cousin, Moiz Amjad, also joined this journey and began working in English. How did he come on board?
Shehzad Saleem: We need to consider some history, but it is known that he was a brilliant student, topping both his B.Com and MBA programs.
Hasan Ilyas: He was working in a bank in Rawalpindi, right?
Shehzad Saleem: Yes, at a place called Young Investment or something similar. At that time, I had already been influenced by Dr. Israr Ahmed. Moiz is my childhood friend and my maternal uncle’s son, so we were very close. When I developed a religious inclination, naturally I wanted to involve my close friend in this journey. So, when I went to Dr. Israr Ahmed, I persuaded him to join as well. His subsequent journey involved Dr. Khalid Zaheer, who had been his MBA supervisor and, incidentally, was also a student of Javed Ahmed Ghamidi, so likely Dr. Khalid Zaheer brought him on board.
Hasan Ilyas: Correct. Now, Shehzad Bhai, this journey spans forty to fifty years. I want to present an image of it to the audience. Scholarly work was extensive, and simultaneously, the institution was being built. The process of institution-building is arduous, thankless, and exhausting. Muslims have no very organized tradition of establishing and running institutions. You have been associated with Al-Mawrid since 1988 and managed it almost continuously for 26–27 years. By 2009, when we formally became involved, you were likely still the General Secretary. Could you give a brief picture of how life unfolded while managing these practical affairs?
Shehzad Saleem: When I first became acquainted with Javed Ahmed Ghamidi, we were individually learning from him. At that time, it became evident that institutionalization was necessary—creating a platform where people like us could join without difficulty, have access to education, and progress. This was around 1990 when Altaf Mahmood, an extraordinary personality, decided to take responsibility. Coincidentally, Moiz Amjad, Asif Iftikhar, and I all joined Javed Ahmed Ghamidi around the same period.
Hasan Ilyas: Were you all of similar age?
Shehzad Saleem: Yes, approximately. The institution was formed in 1983–84 and functioned smoothly as an evening institute until 1986, with classes three or four days a week for two to two-and-a-half hours. It was not a full-fledged institution. In 1986, it was banned and suspended. When we joined in 1988, after some time, Altaf Mahmood took the initiative in 1989, saying that this new batch of young people should not remain an individual batch but operate institutionally. Altaf Mahmood had returned from Germany and was involved in homeopathic medicines. He decided to revive Al-Mawrid, rent a place, and allocate one-third of his resources to the institution, one-third to his family, and one-third to his business. A few others assisted, but the primary effort was Altaf Mahmood’s.
Javed Ahmed Ghamidi then told me to manage the institution until a replacement could be found, seeing my small administrative skills. An incident illustrates this: once, I went to E-51 Model Town, where Javed Ahmed Ghamidi had an office and a large room cluttered with books. After meeting him, I thought of organizing the room several times but left it. Eventually, I spent four or five hours arranging the room. Later, Javed Ahmed
Ghamidi noted my effort and felt I could manage the institution. Thus, I became the administrator, while others handled teaching. We also started the magazine alongside.
The process of launching the magazine and running the institution began simultaneously, a highly demanding task. Javed Ahmed Ghamidi personally assisted with everything—from selecting carpets to woodwork—planning at E-51 Model Town while the institution’s space was at E-98, across two streets. He spent eight to nine days molding the new space, painting, arranging furniture, and guiding workers. He was deeply engaged from morning till evening, instructing workers meticulously. After physically preparing the institution, we furnished it, with Altaf Mahmood financing it. We aimed for a modern educational organization, setting up rooms, beautiful carpets, and a reception area. A system was created for stipends and work assignments for those involved. From 1991 to 1995, over five years, we developed a structured system with defined semesters for students.
I remember that students like Dr. Sajid Hameed, Moiz Amjad, Asif Iftikhar, myself, and then others began to join. Javed Ahmed Ghamidi also restarted public gatherings, which had been on hold for some time. The arrangement was such that the Lahore Commissioner—perhaps Javed Qureshi, who knew Altaf Mahmood— was responsible for granting permission at Alhamra. Altaf Mahmood spoke to him, and he allowed a monthly lecture series. Thus, a series of lectures began, with Javed Ahmed Ghamidi lecturing once a month. Gradually, more people started attending. Initially, people associated Javed Ahmed Ghamidi with Jamaat-e-Islami, but over time, he became known as an independent scholar through Al-Mawrid. This brought some vitality to our institution.
Later, Altaf Hussain Qureshi Sahib, editor of Urdu Digest, suggested that Javed Ahmed Ghamidi deliver lectures weekly at his institution, Idara-e-Umur-e-Pakistan. Thus, a monthly series at Alhamra and a weekly series at Idara- e-Umur-e-Pakistan began.
Hasan Ilyas: The lectures on Imam Abu Hanifa and Imam Malik?
Shehzad Saleem: Yes, you can see on Facebook that the older students attended. This was around 1988–89, and Dr. Absar Ahmed, brother of Dr. Israr Ahmed, also attended.
Hasan Ilyas: Khursheed Nadeem was also a newcomer around this time.
Shehzad Saleem: Yes, coincidentally, he joined then. Later, Maulana Wasi Mazhar Nadvi also joined, as did Mustafa Sadiq, editor of Wifaq. This is how it started. Regarding resources, we had to remain alert: salaries had to be paid by the first of the month. Occasionally, it seemed we might be late, but remarkably, we rarely were. Altaf Sahib initially covered all expenses. Later, Shakil-ur-Rahman, Dr. Munir Ahmed, Rafiq Rahman, and Anees Mufti also joined. So, a whole convoy began. Although our budget was modest, even then, the salaries we paid were better than those at contemporary religious institutions, as we had to cater to modern professionals. Some of our own people remarked that we were focusing too much on the setup and not enough on content. But Javed Ahmed Ghamidi’s temperament is such that he seeks refinement in both areas.
Hasan Ilyas: Shehzad Bhai, it has been a pleasure to have this long and detailed conversation with you. I have a small final question: when you look back, do you have any regrets? Do you feel that perhaps you should not have undertaken this work, or could have done something better?
Shehzad Saleem: Absolutely no regrets. I thank Allah every day. I believe Allah gave me an opportunity, and I am very grateful for it, because this work was my desire. I could have left this world with this desire unfulfilled, but God created a path: first, I met my teacher’s teacher, then my teacher, and through them, I had the means to acquire knowledge of the Deen. Moreover, when my family realized that this was not extremism, they supported me. My mother, my two sisters, my wife, and my son provided such support that I always felt if this opportunity had not come from God, I could have done nothing. Therefore, I feel immense contentment and thank Allah daily for giving me the chance and the ability to utilize it.
Hasan Ilyas: Alhamdulillah. Final question, Shehzad Bhai: how do you envision the future of this institution, movement, or intellectual tradition?
Shehzad Saleem: The sustainability of any movement depends on creating one or more institutions that provide continuity. This revolves around three main areas: education, research, and dissemination. Each field requires committed individuals: some should handle educational responsibilities, others complete research projects, some work on new initiatives, and others focus on spreading the knowledge globally. For example, our US institution does this work, our parent institution in Pakistan has been doing it for a long time, and our branches in other countries are also engaged in this effort.
I believe the greatest responsibility is maintaining these three spheres, either combined or separately. There should be no disruption, and individuals must continue engaging in research, teaching, and dissemination. Depending on inclination and skills, some may work in more than one area simultaneously, but preferably, specialists should be developed—specialist teachers, researchers, and preachers—who understand, explain, and convey these ideas with humility, scholarly rigor, and without confrontation. Students should be inspired to seek truth, learn, teach, and cultivate tolerance to listen, engage, and educate rather than merely persuade.
Hasan Ilyas: Thank you very much, Shehzad Bhai, for your time. Viewers, InshaAllah, we will continue to benefit from Shehzad Saleem Bhai in future sessions. Time ends here. Thank you for your attention.