[Director of Research and Communication at “Ghamidi Center of Islamic Learning, USA” and Editor of “Ishraq America” (Audio), Mr. Muhammad Hassan Ilyas, recently visited Pakistan. During his visit, the host of the “Off the School” podcast, Najam Suhrawardi, conducted an in- depth interview with him. In this interview, various issues faced by Pakistan and Muslims were discussed. Mr. Hassan Ilyas provided clear and detailed responses, presenting his stance on these matters. This interview can be viewed on the YouTube channel of the Ghamidi Center. After necessary editing and additions, it is being published for the readers of “Ishraq America.”]
Najam Suhrawardi: Today, we have Mr. Hassan Ilyas with us. He is a prominent student of Mr. Javed Ahmad
Conversation: Muhammad Hassan Ilyas Interviewer: Najam Suhrawardi Editing and Arrangement: Rana Muazzam Safdar
Introduction
(An Interview with Mr. Muhammad Hassan Ilyas)
Ghamidi and the Director of the “Ghamidi Center of Islamic Learning, USA.” One of his great qualities is that despite strong disagreements, he can engage in dialogue with patience and politeness. In today’s times, when our society is plagued by intolerance, this quality is nothing short of a great blessing. When contentious topics are discussed with patience, respect, and propriety, there is much to learn, and it fosters an environment of dialogue in society.
Mr. Hassan, thank you for joining us.
Today, we will discuss some important questions on academic, intellectual, political, and social topics. But before we begin, I would like you to introduce yourself and tell us a bit about your early life and educational journey.
Muhammad Hassan Ilyas: Thank you very much, brother. I am grateful for your kind words.
I was born in 1988 in Karachi. I lived in Pakistan from 1988 until 2010, spending most of my time in Karachi. I received my school education here, studying up to the age of twelve or thirteen. After that, I lived in Islamabad for a while. Then I returned to Karachi and started my religious education, completing the Dars-e-Nizami curriculum. In 2011, I went to Malaysia to study under Javed Ahmad Ghamidi. I spent the next eight years in Malaysia under his guidance, learning and understanding the sciences of the Quran, Sunnah, and Hadith directly from him. In 2019, I moved to the USA. For the past five years, I have been residing in the USA, working day and night with Ghamidi Sahib on research, writing, and scholarly projects.
The Difference Between the Education Systems of Pakistan and the USA
Question: Mr. Hassan, you have received education in both schools and madrasas in Pakistan. You have also seen the education systems of Malaysia and the USA. This means you have had the opportunity to directly understand the modern educational institutions and traditional religious madrasas in Pakistan, as well as the most advanced education system in the USA. In this context, can you explain the differences between the education systems of Pakistan and the USA?
Answer: Look, the education system of any society reflects its conditions. It is not an abstract or separate entity from the society. The national temperament, ideas, ideals, and objectives of a society shape its education system.
Now, if we talk about the education system of Pakistan, we need to consider several aspects to understand it. We know that for the past two hundred years, this region has been experiencing a cultural crisis. This crisis is why we see a struggle and conflict in cultural matters. Here, there is talk of reviving the past glory of Muslims; movements for the revival of the caliphate arise; Pakistan is considered a fortress of Islamic countries. Then there is the sense of success in gaining independence from British rule. There is a tussle between civil and military relations. Moreover, this region is the center of interest for global imperial powers, and their interventions are also evident. From this brief overview, it can be well understood what kind of cultural crisis Pakistan is facing. This cultural crisis shapes our attitudes. It forms our national temperament, which is then reflected in our education system.
From another perspective, our education system is essentially designed by the elite of a certain era, where the purpose of education was to elevate a few people to high positions. Selection was made based on competition to lead people to these high positions. Hence, our education system directs students towards the goal of attaining positions and securing jobs. In reality, education has nothing to do with this entire concept.
Education is the cultivation of the soul. Education enhances the abilities bestowed by Allah upon a person. I often say that sometimes difficult situations teach us life’s most important lessons that even great philosophers cannot teach. To clarify my point, let me give an example. My twins were born, and I was concerned that being twins, they might be weak. So, I started reading various studies on the internet and consulted different doctors. When I asked one doctor about the weight of my three-month-old children compared to the standard weight of three-month-old children worldwide, he told me that this is a completely wrong perspective. A child’s weight is never measured against other children in the world; it is measured against their birth weight to see where they have reached. Education works similarly. The abilities Allah has given me, which I was born with, need to be cultivated. This detail illustrates that Pakistan’s education system reflects our national crisis.
Regarding the American society, its foundation is based on the social and political thoughts of scholars like John Locke and others. It values humanism, freedom of expression, freedom of thought, and freedom as basic values.
America has its religious background and a history of political struggle. They have faced oppression, domination, and injustice. As a result, certain social values have emerged there. The rule of law is a value, self-determination is a value, freedom of expression is a value, democracy is a value. Furthermore, there is complete freedom of movement for people. These factors and values have shaped its national temperament, which is reflected in their education system.
Thus, the concept of education in America is entirely different from what we find in Pakistan. Being educated there does not mean holding high degrees. If we look at the statistics in America, very few people pursue higher education or university-level education, and it should be that way. In a society, the number of people specializing in specific fields is around ten to twelve percent, but this does not mean that the rest are considered uneducated. Other people improve their awareness and livelihood by gaining expertise in their areas of interest, such as learning languages or different skills. You can see that they work hard to learn basic skills as diligently as someone pursuing a high degree works for their education. This is why a skilled worker is respected just as much as a Ph.D. scholar, if not more.
Difference Between the Economic Systems of Pakistan and the United States
Question: In developed societies like the United States, people do not consider professions such as taxi driving or skilled trades like electricians and plumbers to be demeaning. In fact, they earn enough from such jobs to easily buy houses in affluent areas. On the contrary, in our society, such professions are considered inferior. Everyone aspires to obtain a high degree, and even after becoming doctors or engineers, earning enough to buy a house in a city like Karachi is not easy. What do you think is the reason for this?
Answer: There are two aspects to this. Firstly, in our society, professions are categorized as respectable or contemptible from a very young age. Parents often tell their children things like, “If you don’t study, what will you do in life, sell vegetables?” Such remarks instill disdain for certain professions in their minds. Education is viewed merely as a means to employment rather than a path to awareness, and selling vegetables is presented as a lowly job. In contrast, the same profession of selling vegetables is termed a startup in developed countries like the US and is seen as entrepreneurship. There, the profession and the person doing it are not looked down upon. To rectify this situation, we need to promote the idea in our society that all professions, when earned through hard work and legitimate means, are respectable.
Secondly, there is the issue of competition and comparison. In our society, career choices are not based on one’s abilities, preferences, and available opportunities but on an unnecessary race with others. This attitude is essentially rooted in hostility and the desire to outdo others. People in developed countries do not engage in such a mindset, and it is crucial to address this in our society as well.
Question: What methods have developed societies like the US adopted that we can also implement to bring improvement and progress? Do you recommend studying these societies?
Answer: Studying a society can be done from the outside, through books, films, and travelogues, or by going there and observing directly. There is a significant difference between the two. However, efforts to improve through such studies can certainly be beneficial. But in my view, real improvement can only come if we develop enough tolerance to openly discuss the changes happening in the world and prepare our nation for the necessary transformations. Unfortunately, intolerance has increased so much that we want to eliminate anyone who holds different views. The example of Javed Ahmad Ghamidi and myself is before you; we faced persecution for our beliefs and were forced to move to Malaysia due to lack of freedom to work in our country.
As an aside, I would like to mention Malaysia. It is an Islamic country and is considered a developed nation. Religion is a tradition and a cultural value system there. The fundamental values that religion instills are reflected in their societal values. People there have good ethics and a spirit of craftsmanship. The world knows that Malaysia was not like this from the beginning; it was Mahathir Mohamad who founded modern Malaysia. Once, during a meeting with him, I asked about the secret of their progress. I wanted to know this secret because we Pakistanis also take pride in Islam and aspire to progress. He told me that his formula for the development of his nation was to train the 10-12% intellectuals among them to make the remaining 90% work. Thus, the 10-12% taught the rest to work, and the nation moved in a direction.
If we look at our country, there are many challenges in moving in one direction. For example, we see states within the state. There is a state of ‘unknown people’ and a state of ‘religious people.’ Due to these factors, instead of moving in one direction, the society is embroiled in internal conflicts.
Another significant challenge in our society is instability. The situation has become such that there is no stability from home to society and from shop to state institutions. Where there is confrontation instead of stability, people never think collectively. They only think about themselves. Let me give you an example from everyday life. On the streets of Karachi, every car and motorcycle rider tries to get ahead regardless of causing traffic jams, just to get through somehow, even if others are stuck for hours. This attitude and psychology have become our national temperament. We strive to get ahead in every matter without caring for our nation and people. For our reform, it is essential to rise above self-interest and think as a nation, just like the people of Malaysia recognized themselves as a nation and moved in one direction.
As for the United States, it has traveled a long way and reached a certain level in the matter of national development and prosperity. Here, every individual is progressing by utilizing their abilities, and the state’s sole purpose is to provide security to its citizens. They provide shelter and protection not only to their citizens but also to those who cannot stay in their own countries due to their religious or political beliefs. For religious people like us, when it becomes impossible to stay in our own country, it is the US where we find a place. People should think about why there is such intolerance and insecurity in our country, while the criticism is that we have embraced the lap of Jews and Christians.
Question: When we talk about the economic system of the United States, the concept of capitalism comes to mind. It is criticized both from a religious perspective and socially and economically. Since you are now residing there and observing things directly, how do you view the American capitalist system?
Answer: My process of understanding any matter begins with studying the factors of nature that Allah has placed in human nature. Regarding the criticisms of capitalism, to be honest, I never understood them. I remember a time when we used to visit the Department of Composition and Compilation at Karachi University. There was a wonderful gathering there. Entering there felt like entering another world, as there were discussions on new systems and ideas. Philosophers who spoke against capitalism and its evils also sat there. Once, someone told me that this system creates a psychology of greed and lust among people. It shows them new things to lure them into buying them, and then people, after purchasing these things, fall into the psychology of pride. This system is a whole organized effort to extract the last penny from a person’s pocket by exploiting this pride. Their conversation was ongoing when we saw a person driving a new car vigorously through the window. He said, “This is the evil of capitalism. First, they showed advertisements of the car to arouse greed in him, now he has bought the car and is proudly driving it on Karachi University’s roads.” I replied, “This pride can also be felt by buying a horse. If I have a new horse and ride it on the street, I will have this psychology because the feeling of superiority is ingrained in human nature. Do you say that this instinct should not be there in me? Shouldn’t I feel happy with new things? Similarly, if Allah has given me a talent, should I not use it to attract people to it? I do this every day, and I understand that it is our instinct. If an economy has embraced this instinct, how can it be considered against human nature as a system? I never understood this approach.
On the other hand, those who oppose private ownership and support the system of collective ownership, before delving into the philosophies, I look at my nature. In my nature, there is a concept of ownership. I feel an attachment with ownership. Just like we have ownership of the soil. For example, whenever I come from America to Karachi, I feel a sense of gratitude. If someone asks me why, my answer will be that since I have benefited from here and have a connection with this soil, I have these feelings. Are the feelings of ownership wrong and unnatural that should be eradicated?
The capitalist system or any system created by humans can have evils. We should look at the benefits and see if there are possibilities for improvement. Before that, view the system with the concepts of harmony with our nature.
While negating capitalism, some people propose the Islamic economic system as an alternative. This is actually a specific era’s jurisprudence developed in the Arab society twelve to fourteen hundred years ago, although people call it Islam and present it as a system. When this system is discussed, it will also have many objections.
In the context of the American capitalist system, I want to tell you that there, the state wants to take its citizens to a certain standard of living, where every citizen has access to education and basic health facilities. After that, they test the citizens’ skills. Understand that just as Allah sends you into the world with the awareness of free will to test you, capitalism also tests you. In this test, those who are weak fall behind. Those who fall behind say that this system has left them behind.
Question: So, would it be fair to call it ‘Survival of the fittest’?
Answer: Absolutely! That’s how it is. The world operates on this principle. You see, in your school too, the law of ‘Survival of the fittest’ prevails. A teacher comes and performs, if the performance is acceptable to you, he survives, otherwise, you replace him. The world system runs according to this principle. People talk about the evils of capitalism, but we have seen that when humans are left to their internal awareness in a free market economy, many things improve. This is because things are scrutinized. This scrutiny also happened in America itself. You see, the system based on Karl Marx’s theories—when the evils, oppression, and tyranny emerged from it—was opposed, scrutinized, and improvements were made. The current laws like labor laws and human rights are the result of this scrutiny. Hence, dismissing a system because of its evils without considering its benefits is not wise. Instead, we should look at the possibilities of improvement and eliminate the evils.
[to be continued…..]